Episode 46

Navigating and Creating Success with Self-Publishing with Vanesa Salinas

Welcome the talented Vanesa Salinas, book author and former reporter, to Saturday Soundbites!

After a successful career in media, including Spanish-language media, Vanesa began her journey as a writer and launched into a new world of self-publishing. With a focus on bilingual books, she is launching Paloma Latina Books!

Join Veronica and Vanesa as they talk about the challenges and opportunities that come along with self-publishing and the marketing that supports a book release.

Every aspiring author needs to check out this episode.

Transcript :

[00:00:00] Veronica: Hello. Hello and welcome to Saturday soundbites. I'm your host, Veronica Sofer. And I am thrilled to be here with you again this week to talk about all things, visibility strategy here on Saturday soundbites, we talk about branding, marketing, advertising, networking a little bit of a little bit of mindset because that's always important too.

[00:00:21] And then I bring on some phenomenal guests that have a background in. Base that are doing really fantastic things and have great projects out there. And today my guest is amazing. I've known her for years and I can't wait for you to hear her story because she is a true storyteller and every sense of the word.

[00:00:38] And as storytellers, there's a lot of different ways. We get our stories out there. And today we're going to talk about self, self publishing and how to navigate through that process. But a little bit of housekeeping. If you're watching on Facebook, make sure you give us a. So that Vanessa and I can communicate with you and engage if you catch this on the replay, hashtag replay.

[00:00:56] But if you're listening on the podcast, which is always something we want you to do, make sure you hit subscribe because we don't want you to miss any episodes. So let's go ahead and get started today. My guest is Vanessa silliness and she is joining us today from the DFW area. She is a fantastic writer and I'm just thrilled to have her on the show.

[00:01:17] Vanesa: Welcome. Thank you Veronica, for having me. It's nice to see you. Oh, you know, we haven't

[00:01:22] Veronica: actually seen each other or talked with voices in about 10 years. So this is just a treat for us. It is. So, so I I'll confess I do bring on a lot of journalists and I have a lot of journalists who are former journalists that have found new paths and new ways of sharing their talents with the world.

[00:01:40] And you are one of those people. So tell us about how you went from being a journalist, especially in the Spanish language media, to being a teacher and now being a publisher.

[00:01:51] Vanesa: Yes. Well, it all started at such a young age. I knew, you know, that I love to write. I mean, I would write poems, little stories here and there.

[00:01:59] And I knew I wanted to do something. And as you know, I ended up, you know becoming a journalist and I always, it was print media. You know, I worked at newspapers and you know, I was happy doing it, writing on a daily basis, but you know, in 2009, when the recession hit now, I got laid off. So I was at a point where I was like, what am I going to do?

[00:02:20] And back then I was covering a lot of education stories. So I went in and I, you know, ended up going into the classroom. I switched careers. I became a bilingual teacher and I loved it, but there was always that missing part, you know, I wasn't writing on a daily basis, you know, so I miss that. So I eventually started uh, you know, writing a book and it was my first.

[00:02:45] You know, and that was published a few years ago, very different bucket. It had a text and feel it was all in English. It was not bilingual. I was kind of, you know, based on the path I was going, you know, I'm trying to publish it. You know, I, at that time I could only do it in English. I didn't have the opportunity to do a bilingual book.

[00:03:03] So, you know, fast forward to now, you know, I'm working on this year. You know, and for Bellamah Latina books and very different and doing the whole process is very different now, you know, so I'm pretty much combining that, you know, my writing, you know, being in the classroom, combining all of that, and now I have a daughter, you know, so, you know, she's been the inspiration, you know, to all of this.

[00:03:31] Veronica: And that's always the case. Right? We get inspired by the things we love the most. So tell us a little bit about the transition and what the impetus was. I mean, obviously you're a storyteller. You are a writer, you were doing daily assignments, you had deadlines. Then you transitioned into the classroom.

[00:03:48] And you, you lost that desire or you lost the ability to write on a daily basis. How did you start incorporating that, such that you were able to put a book together? Cause that's always a question people aspiring writers had. How do you make it a daily habit? How do you actually sit down and do.

[00:04:05] Vanesa: You know, it's pretty much making the time.

[00:04:07] I mean, you know, when I first started teaching, it was very difficult because I was trying to figure out teaching in itself. You know, it was something very new. I mean, I went from, like I said, writing on a daily basis. And being in an office to being in a classroom with students. I did at the time teach fourth grade and, you know, we did do some writing in fourth grade.

[00:04:27] Well, a lot of writing. So, you know, I was helping kids at that time, you know, learn how to write, you know, stories. But then, you know, learning, you know, when you field, I did not really have the time, you know, to do it and. Finally a few years later, I just, I sat down and I was like, I have an idea. And it's interesting because you know my first story ever as an intern, you know, journalist was on the little black box.

[00:04:56] So one day I was like, I am going to write a story with a text and Fiona and going to be about a little black bear. So that's how that came about, you know, so that's why it's like a Chico bear, you know, sexist adventure, so that I just set up a time back then and I started writing and, you know, then I.

[00:05:15] Got, you know, my former auditor and that was like, Hey, can you help me out a bit? You know, I have my draft here, you know, let's start working on this. I want to publish it. So it was pretty much just trying to make some time to write. And back then it was a little bit easier, obviously, you know, now, I mean everything right now.

[00:05:34] It's I still have my full-time career right now. I work as a specialist, you know, in the bilingual department here. So I, I have full-time career. My family. Yeah. Navigating, you know, the self-publishing world as well. Yeah.

[00:05:50] Veronica: Which is really the crux of what, what it is. We want to share with people today. Tell us about how you figured out self publishing was for you because there's generally a couple of different ways books get published and we've got the traditional model that a lot of people are used to, or they know about.

[00:06:05] But with the advent of on-demand printing that's changed. How did you figure out how that was right for you and what were some of the lessons learned through that?

[00:06:15] Vanesa: Yes, definitely. Well, when I started doing research back then, you know, I quickly realized that I could not do the traditional route. You know, I did not have time to, you know, submit a manuscript, wait a few months, you know, see if it was even going to get picked up or not.

[00:06:30] Then I realized, well, there's self publishing companies. So I started doing some research, you know, and I was like, okay, this can work for me. So. When I was getting ready, you know, to, to find, you know, a self publishing company. That's when I found out that I was pregnant. So it took me a long time to get the.

[00:06:49] Complete it, because I was going through the pregnancy, you know, the first trimester, you know how that goes, you know, it wasn't, it didn't get posted to when my daughter was one already. It took some time because I wasn't, I wasn't used to working with people online, through email and keep in mind. This was a few years ago.

[00:07:09] This was about six years ago. I want to say. And it was, I still see it as very different compared to what I'm doing now, but I did find a company and, you know, I ended up prolonging it because I had to do a lot of this stuff online, submit this, now this and that, you know? No. And then I'm trying to navigate pregnancy then a new born.

[00:07:28] So, you know, it was, it was the good thing was that self paced, you know, but I also learned what I did not want to do. This time around. Cause you know, at, at that point in time, you know, I was like, okay, I done the one book, you know, we'll see where this goes, but it was one of those things where research was the one that brought me to the self publishing world, because I hadn't even heard about it back then.

[00:07:59] Veronica: Yeah. And that's probably really, I mean, you probably used your journalism background. To navigate the research part, know what was credible and w you know, figure out what companies are available. So now that, so you, you published your first book and then you started with, with a series. What are some of the things that you mentioned that are, have been different this time around?

[00:08:21] What were some of the lessons learned or not? I wouldn't say mistakes that were made, but mistakes that really helped you get to this point in a positive.

[00:08:30] Vanesa: Well, I knew that this time around, you know, I needed to make sure that, you know, whoever I was going to go with, because I was going to do the same thing.

[00:08:38] I was going to go through a self-publishing company and I was researching companies because, you know, when I got the book, I was like, you know, this could have been very different, you know? I mean, it's a very good book, but I don't think, you know, The weather it's like the layout, you know, the way they laid it out, you know, the quality I was like, this could have been a lot better.

[00:08:58] So I am going to do research on all sorts of cell phones. Well, because it's also financial, you know what I mean? It does cost you no money, you know, to get itself published. So you're looking, you know, financial, you know, the quality, you know, looking through reviews, you know, making sure, like you said that they're credible.

[00:09:17] And, you know, I found when I was so excited, so I gave them a call and. Then I was like, okay, the customer service wasn't, you know, when you know, they're like, okay, just leave a message. We'll call you back and be done. Call backs. I was like, okay. You know, let me give them another call. And again, I just didn't feel like, you know, they were excited about this as I was excited.

[00:09:45] You know one thing I learned from my brother, you know, cause I gave him a call and he works, you know, in business and on. And one thing he said that stuck with me was, you know, the way they treat you as a way they're going to treat your book. So I was like, that makes a lot of sense. And I was like, I did not like how they treated me.

[00:10:03] So what makes me think that they're going to treat my book that's so dear to my heart, you know, so. When I saw that and I was like, okay, let me go back and do more research. And then I started finding, you know, how you can publish your own books. And I was like, okay, well this is a game changer. So then I started shifting my research to, you know, how can I publish my own book?

[00:10:30] You know? So it's like one thing to another, to another, and everything was based on research. And so I had to take time, you know, late at night, trying to do the research, figuring out, you know, okay. Now how am I going to self publish? Because this. You know, better and financially speaking, more affordable because you're doing the legwork.

[00:10:49] Now, the thing is you are doing all the work,

[00:10:52] Veronica: right? The work still

[00:10:53] Vanesa: gets done. It still gets done, you know, so it was doing research. Okay. So I need to sell, publish. Where can I go to self publish? You know, what works for me and what I'm looking for, you know, then you're going into, okay, I need an ISB and I need two copyrights, you know?

[00:11:10] So there's a lot of different things, you know, you need your illustrator. Like where am I going to find them? There's a lot of research done, you know, and that's how I came about it. And then I'm like, okay, you know, what, if I'm going to do this on my own, might as well do my own little business, you know?

[00:11:28] And that's when I was like, okay, now I'm doing research on how to, you know, like do my own business. Let's go to the county office. It's a register, you know, So it's been quite the process and it's been long, but I thought to myself, I'll do all the legwork right now, but once I get this one book done, you know, it'll be easier because I'll know what to do.

[00:11:48] And then I'll have my own little business. And now my series on anything that I do with this can be housed all under my own little.

[00:11:57] Veronica: Yeah. And so the name of your company is Bellomo Latina books. Yes. And tell us a little bit about that and the significance, because as someone who has been in the education space someone who has struggled with finding books that are culturally aligned to some of the things that I wanted for both myself and then just for my daughters as well, there's, it's a pretty profound.

[00:12:21] Thing to do to start your own publishing company, but then also to align it in such a way that people are automatically have an expectation of what your public.

[00:12:30] Vanesa: Yes. And it started again, you know, when, when I was trying to find books for my daughter and you know, when she was a baby, you know, I was trying to get her a little library done and, and, you know, you do find some Spanish books, but it's very difficult to find one, a book that's bilingual, you know, bilingual book to a book that, you know, reflects our culture.

[00:12:51] No. And, you know, I found some books, but they're pretty much the books that have been translated. And, you know, like I was saying, it's like, when you go into a bookstore first, you need to find the Spanish section. And when you find that it's not a, you know, a massive section, it says the fraction there. And then to find a book that you find, you know, you find a relatable to yourself.

[00:13:12] It was difficult, you know? So as she started growing up, you know, I was like, I want to share that with her because even our upbringing is very different. I mean, I grew up in a border town. So back then when I was little, I didn't know, I was immersed in the culture, you know? Obviously here in north Texas, it's very different.

[00:13:33] You know, I cross the border every week to visit grandma, you know, I mean, I knew back home, it's Spanish all the time. You know, you have the music, you know, and our upbringing is so different. So I wanted to make sure I found a way to connect that with her. And one of the things, you know, we do, and when my mom is here as well, or when we go visit.

[00:13:53] We're in the kitchen, you know, so we're doing, you know, food, cooking, whatever. And, and I have her, you know, it's kind of with the couple of reasons, you know, have her there one, I want her to become independent and that she knows how to cook when she's older. Now she's not in the stove. She does help out, you know, but we do try to do, you know, like for example, the first book that I'm going to about to publish it's on.

[00:14:17] Okay. So we do make, when you are lost, you know, we're there and we're making them, so I'm trying to tie it tight in, you know, so that's how, you know, the, the book series came about between her, you know, the culture, you know, sharing our beautiful culture. It's so rich, you know, with our traditions and they'll, you know, sharing it with her, you know, in the kitchen, but also sharing it with the world, you know, and even, you know, people that are not aware, you know, sharing it with them as well, you know, and helping our.

[00:14:46] See themselves, you know, in a book when they're reading it or say, okay, you know, this is the way it is, you know, so yeah, it all started with her and how I did not find, you know, the books that I wished I could have found it, it's getting better, you know, more and more. I find more books here and there, but, you know, I think there's still a lot work.

[00:15:06] Yeah,

[00:15:07] Veronica: well, and, and I love that and I love the food connection. And I'll tell you why, because for those of you listening on the podcast or watching when willows are a dessert they're usually they're very, they've got cinnamon and sugar. It's a, it's a light pastry type. But there are similar, and this is why I think this is important.

[00:15:25] There are similar type desserts in different cultures. I have a friend who's Vietnamese and they have a dessert that's very similar to. And then I have a friend who's Indian and in Indian culture, they have a dish that's very similar to. And so what I love about what you're talking about is when children can not only find books that they can relate to for their culture, they can share it with others who have similar.

[00:15:48] I may not be exact, but similar to. Things about their culture. That really just starts that conversation. And I love that that's what books do. And I love that. The example you gave is, is exactly what we're trying as parents to broaden all of our children's horizons and their exposure because they live in a global world.

[00:16:06] Vanesa: They do they do. And, and it was like one thing led to another, you know, when I started writing this book I knew I wanted to do something, you know, cause I saw the need and it didn't take for, you know, I had it in my mind, but you know, if you don't put it in pen and pencil, I mean, I've been kind of pen and paper.

[00:16:24] It's not going to happen. You know, you'd have to make it happen. Nothing's going to get done. If you don't try. I had it in my mind, but, you know, I just never made the time. You know, you get busy with everyday life. And there was just one day that I had such a bad day from beginning to end and I hadn't written in a while.

[00:16:42] So when everyone was asleep, I got my laptop and I typed a sentence. And then that sentence became a paragraph, you know? And I was like, I think I've got something here. So I just kept going and going. And that's how this book came about. When it was still in the, in the rough draft pace, I thought, okay, you know, what about, you know, the series?

[00:17:06] And then my second book, you know, it's fandom worthless. And the reason I thought about that, again, it's a couple of things. One, obviously, you know, it's a tradition that we have, you know, the alter, but it's such a difficult topic to discuss with a kid. And it wasn't until I had my own that I realized, how do you discuss this topic with a child?

[00:17:32] So this book actually it's already, I already wrote it. It's already. So after this one, I mean, I should be getting the illustrations this weekend for this one and it's almost ready to publish. So the second one is ready, but obviously I still need to go through the illustration process. What have you been.

[00:17:49] That one it's so like, to me, I mean, so heartwarming because you, it discusses the topic, you know, in a very lighthearted way, but you're also talking about the bond and where the alter, you know, so it's a very sweet, sweet book. And again, I mean, on that one, I think. It has even more because we're talking about, you know, the altar, you know, and we're talking about, you know, the pun and you know, then we're talking a little bit about, you know, these are our loved ones, you know, they're still here with us, you know, so, but it's very light and hearted because I thought to myself, oh my God, you know, like this is such a difficult time.

[00:18:27] Yeah.

[00:18:28] Veronica: Yeah, no, I think, I think the fact that you're, you're able to, and that's the beauty of being a journalist and have been a storyteller. And then also being a teacher is, you know, how to synthesize stories in a way that speaks still conveys the message and the point, but speaks to them in a place where they're at.

[00:18:44] And that's, that's really. That's a gift. So I think you're, I'm so excited to read it. I can't wait for it to be

[00:18:50] Vanesa: published. Thank you.

[00:18:52] Veronica: It's going to be great. So now that you've got the publishing company, you've done all the research you've established it. You figured out lessons learned, you mentioned previously we were off camera talking about the importance of contracts and logistics.

[00:19:04] What are a couple of other tips that you think other people should think about as they're considering self publishing and then. You know, what, what, what are some of the things you plan on doing next with that?

[00:19:18] Vanesa: Definitely. Well, you know, once, you know, you know, you want to do this, you know, have a plan. It doesn't always work out, you know have plan a plan B plan C you know, because I mean, I had my plan, but I had a huge hit.

[00:19:33] And it was a struggle to where I almost gave up. And it was one of those things where book one was ready. We're ready for book two, but we couldn't get, you know, that sorted out. So then I had to start from scratch all over again with book one, because it is a series there and I need to be uniform, you know, it can't look different.

[00:19:54] So I had to start from scratch, you know, so one thing is, you know, have your plan, have a backup plan. Don't quit. I almost quit, but don't because, and that's one thing that I always teach my daughter, you know, when you fall, you need to get right back up. So I also couldn't teach her like, it's okay for me to give up.

[00:20:15] So it's not an easy process, you know, it does take work, but if you have your plan written out, you know, It will be better. You have your vision, you have a goal. And even that goal changes. Like I had an old, when I first started and it has changed a couple of times since, you know, I'm now thinking of other ideas of how I can even expand my brand, you know, between the books.

[00:20:39] Other products, merchandise, but always being authentic, coming back to being authentic, you know, making sure that we are highlighting our culture, our traditions, our language, because my products are going to be bilingual, you know, English, you know, making sure you know that if you're going to get a book, you're going to get it in both languages, not just in one, but that you have to buy two books.

[00:21:01] The one in English, one in Spanish, the whole point is always making sure you have. That goal, it can change, but always go back to, you know, what is my purpose? You know, I want to share this culture with the world. You know, I want more kids to see themselves, you know, in these books, you know, other kids to learn about our culture.

[00:21:21] So that's very important. We're discussing contracts, contracts are so important and it's something that I wouldn't have thought about, but it did save. You know I've done business with other contract. I've done business with a contract and oh my God, the difference, you know, right. There's plenty of templates.

[00:21:36] Get some ideas online, you know, or write it out, you know, figure out, you know, what you need, make sure it's very detailed to where there will be. No questions asked afterwards, if something goes down, you know, you always go back to your contract, you can refer to your contract. And it's like, okay, we both signed it.

[00:21:55] We both dated it. This is where we're at. Okay. Contracts are still important, whether you're working with family, with friends, someone you don't know have that ready, you know, and to make sure it's aligned, you know, very detailed because it is very important to have that ready and make sure you give a copy to whoever you're working with, you know and even with the, when you're working with people, you know, Research, what have you, you know, I mean, I've met several people, you know and it's great working with people, but just make sure you also know who you're working with.

[00:22:28] Because that, that, it's very important because you're relying on other, other people to. You know, to get your product done. So it's one of those things where I've worked so hard for it. You know, I need to make sure that whoever I'm working with feels as passionate, you know, as I am for, you know, what you're working with, you know, understand and have clarity as well.

[00:22:52] And, you know, w how you want your product, you know, done at the end of the day. Let me see

[00:22:58] Veronica: Well, and you talked about branding, and so I'm really curious as a self-publishing person at someone in the self publishing space, the marketing is all on you, right? It's it's not like there's a, you just call the office and they assign you a publicist.

[00:23:12] You are the publicist. How does, how does that work for you? And what are some of the things that you. Felt like has gone well with marketing the book or you know, do you have an advertising budget? How have you in particular found success in, in sharing about your

[00:23:27] Vanesa: books? Right now? I have no budget for it, but you know, the beauty of nowadays we have social media.

[00:23:34] Right. You know, so, you know, it's social media to me, it's still kind of like, I'm still learning it. I'm learning as I go. And right now I have my Instagram and I have Facebook. Eventually I'll obviously get into Tik TOK. What have you, but I'm also going to do it the old fashioned way too, where getting a press release.

[00:23:55] Now, send it to newspapers. I still believe in newspapers TV stations. What have you, you know, if I do plan eventually depending on, you know, how, you know. Health wise, how everything pans out. When I have the books published, maybe have like a book reading or going to a library, you know, everything is about exposure, you know, making connections, you know, people, I mean, I still know people, you know, in the journalism industry.

[00:24:20] That can help me out and I'm tapping them, Hey, can you help me out? You know, help me out, you know, how to write a press release, you know, even though I've seen them in everything, you know, I still have, you know, I have a very close friend who still works in, you know, marketing and, you know, she'll help me out, you know?

[00:24:36] With the branding, what have you given me tips and all that. So, you know, don't be afraid to, you know, tap your friend's shoulder and say, I need some help, please.

[00:24:45] Veronica: Exactly. Right. Well, and the beauty of it too, is that you're in the, in the education space and the bilingual space. For those people who have written children's books, do you have any insight into how most authors are successful in marketing?

[00:24:59] To, to schools and that's, and the big reason why is because oftentimes they feel passionate about the story. There's always a lesson learned in the story and they want to share it with people. I mean, I know people aren't writing children's books to make millions of dollars. They're doing it because it's a passion for them.

[00:25:14] How do you, on the other side of the table, in the, in the school space, how do you determine what makes a good book and, and one that you would support for your bilingual?

[00:25:25] Vanesa: You know, like if I'm going specifically, you know, for our bilingual program and kiddos, you know, the one thing, like I say, you know, that I'm always going to have this, making sure it is a bilingual book, making sure it's a book where kids can see themselves something that there'll be like, oh, I know what she's talking about, you know obviously like this series, it revolves around, you know, , you know, and the bond that they have, you know, how many kids spend so much time with out really fast, you know, how many kids, you know, know about bossa as.

[00:25:55] You know, or they don't, what have you, but something that is relatable to the kids, you know I know when I was in the classroom and I was writing the first book, I told my students, Hey, I'm writing a puck. And they were so excited. You know, it was one of those things where they're like, oh, like how I was going to sustain the Maya style, you know, like, so, you know, it does generate, you know, enthusiasm on the kid's part, you know?

[00:26:18] And you know, you can even. Tap, you know, if you know, have any connections at school or even the school district, it's like, Hey, you know, I'm coming up with this book, you know, is there a way that I can come and read to the children or what happens. When I was at teaching, we brought in an author, you know, and he brought copies of his books and he read to the kids and he, he was in those streets as well.

[00:26:40] So he did a few illustrations there. Yeah. It was real fun for the kids. And I remember talking to him, you know, after the fact and trying to get some feedback or information regarding, you know, the self publishing, but yeah. I mean, it, it's totally doable and, and, you know, I mean, what a better way.

[00:26:59] Veronica: Absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that's exactly the right way. And I love that you gave those tips because I know when I've talked to children's book authors, they often want to know, well, what's the best way, you know, should I talk to my sister-in-law she's a teacher I'm like, absolutely talk to everyone that, you know, because they're hungry to bring in world world examples of how you can be successful, how you can use your skills and kids need to see that it's possible to have a dream.

[00:27:23] And then. Publish and on paper. So I think that's a great idea. So Vanessa, before I let you go tell us how we can find you on social media. You mentioned Instagram and Facebook. How can people connect with

[00:27:33] Vanesa: you? Yes, send me a message or follow me. I'm under, below my Latina books, you know, both. Facebook and Instagram eventually later on I'll delve more into more social media, you know, it keeps on saying, you're good.

[00:27:47] Take your

[00:27:47] Veronica: time.

[00:27:49] Vanesa: It keeps on changing, you know? So yes, I'm a follow me. Send me a message and I'll be happy to connect with everyone, you know, as of now hopefully within the next two, three weeks or a month, you know, we'll have the first book published. Second one is already ready to get the ball rolling on that.

[00:28:04] So, yeah, there'll be plenty of more to come.

[00:28:07] Veronica: That's awesome. Why can't wait to reconnect? Cause I will definitely be keeping up with you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank

[00:28:14] Vanesa: you for having me. Veronica was very nice seeing you. Thanks so

[00:28:17] Veronica: much. All right, guys, with that, we're going to wrap, wrap up this episode of Saturday soundbites.

[00:28:22] I hope. Notes. Those of you who are anxious to learn more about the self-publishing world, sounds like you need to make sure your contracts are in place that you do. Your research research is very important and you connect with others who are doing what it is you want to do. So I highly encourage you to reach out to Vanessa.

[00:28:39] I find her at Poloma Latina books on both Instagram and on Facebook. So we are going to go ahead and wrap up this episode. If you are watching on Facebook and catch the replay hashtag replay. So Vanessa and I can go back and answer any questions you might have. If you're listening on the podcast, make sure you hit subscribe.

[00:28:54] We don't want you to miss any episodes of Saturday soundbites, where we talk all things, advertising, networking, branding, visibility, strategy, it's all connected, and it will all help you grow your business. So with that, I am sending you lots of positive energy and.