Episode 42

Effective Strategies for Professional Speakers with Joel Schwartzberg

Welcome Joel Schwartzberg, Public Speaking Coach and Author, to Saturday Soundbites! Joel Schwartzberg has been teaching effective presentation techniques for more than 15 years, including in-person and virtual workshops in: 1) identifying and championing key points; 2) elevating points & presence in virtual meetings; and 3) making email more effective.
 
Joel's unique approach helps both novice and experienced presenters identify, sharpen, and powerfully convey their most important ideas—an ability that is undeniably critical to success.

Joel Schwartzberg is a communications coach and writer whose wide range of clients include American Express, Blue Apron, Blue Cross Blue Shield, State Farm Insurance, the Brennan Center for Justice, Comedy Central, the American Jewish Committee, and North Point Ministries.
He currently serves as Senior Director of Strategic and Executive Communications for a major nonprofit and has held senior-level communication and editorial positions with Nickelodeon, PBS, and Time Inc.

An expert in the practice of successful presentations and point-making, Joel's articles have appeared in Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Toastmaster Magazine, and The Huffington Post, and he's been the featured guest on many business and communication podcasts. Joel is also a former state and national public speaking champion who was inducted into the National Forensic Association Hall of Fame in 2002.

Joel is the author of two books:

"The Language of Leadership: How to Engage and Inspire Your Team," which Kevin Eikenberry says "will make your communication more purposeful, meaningful, and inspirational,"

"Get to the Point! Sharpen Your Message and Make Your Words Matter," which Seth Godin calls "a manifesto for giving talks that make a difference."

Join Joel and Veronica as they dive deep into how public speaking can support your brand and business!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Veronica: Hello, and welcome to Saturday soundbites. This is Veronica Sofer. I am your host. I'm so glad to have you here today. Here on Saturday soundbites, we talk all things, visibility strategy. So that could be marketing, advertising, public relations, branding, networking. We've got a lot of public speakers in our group.

[00:00:20] So this episode is going to be one for you. We also have a lot of authors in the book, and we have a lot of entrepreneurs who are really looking to grow their business and leverage different ways of visibility strategy. And for some of you that means speaking at conferences and large events and in front of large groups.

[00:00:36] So I have got a guest for you. That's really going to bring some insight into that. If you're watching on Facebook, let us know you're watching drop us a comment. And if you're watching on the replay, hashtag replay, if you're listening on the podcast, hit subscribe. We want to make sure that you don't miss any episodes of Saturday soundbites.

[00:00:53] So with that, I will bring on our amazing guests today. Mr. Joel Schwartzberg. Thank you for joining us.

[00:01:01] Joel: Thank you, Veronica. It's a pleasure to be here with your Saturday soundbites audience, particularly on the Saturday after my birthday.

[00:01:07] Veronica: Oh, congratulations. Happy birthday to you. Thank you so much for running.

[00:01:12] Yeah, so I was so excited, you know, I reached out, I kind of, I didn't troll you, but I appreciated your work and went and found some of it. And I really liked what you were talking about. And I thought to myself, I have got to get Joel on the show because his insights, strategies, and techniques are exactly what our audience needs.

[00:01:29] So tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, you do and kind of where you got here.

[00:01:33] Joel: Sure. You know, we could take hours talking about it, but sometimes our job is to collapse hours of material into a short space. So I hope to talk the talk as well as walk the walk. My public speaking journey began when I was in sixth grade and I started doing company.

[00:01:48] Public speaking we call it forensics and that continued all the way through senior year in college. And I was the national champion in the ven called after dinner speaking, which is a serious speech with a humorous speech with a serious point. Then I've done coaching for a Seton hall university, university of Pennsylvania, and then something sort of miraculous happened.

[00:02:08] I realized that everything I learned in competitive public speaking, I was applying when I interviewed for a job when I spoke to a direct report or a manager, when I was sent to a conference, when I was at a brainstorming meeting, I was able to communicate more effectively. And I think. There must be a way I can capture that in a bottle.

[00:02:27] So I could share it with other people. So I began my public speaking training practice roughly 16 years ago. And about eight years ago, I took a job with a major nonprofit as overseeing executive communications, which has included speech writing. So really my day-to-day. And my extracurricular life sort of came together as I was coaching public speakers.

[00:02:47] Now one big turning point happened about four years into my public speaking practice, which was, I was training people on all the classic things we know about public speaking. You could Google leads how to position yourself, how to gesture, how to use your voice, eye contact, things like that. But when I asked my clients and students, what the point of their presentation was they wouldn't.

[00:03:09] Hmm, it wouldn't be a point. It would be a topic or a theme or a catchphrase or a category or a notion. Wouldn't be a point. So that's when I began to really transition my training into this fundamental and critical idea of what a point is, and that culminated in a book called get to the point which I wrote in 2017.

[00:03:28] And then this year I sort of recontextualize those ideas in the vein of. How can leaders use their voice and what should they say? What should they be thinking to engage and inspire. And I pick those two words, particularly that's what leaders need to do, engage and inspire them.

[00:03:46] Veronica: Absolutely. And that's, and that's probably true on all levels.

[00:03:50] You you've talked about some of the groups you've worked with, do you feel like maybe senior level folks struggle with that? Or do you feel like that's a mid-level type struggle for a professional or, or is it kind of all of the above? Because I feel like for some, for some groups you would think it would come naturally as part of their leadership skills.

[00:04:08] But I'm wondering if you're seeing that, that it's not necessarily.

[00:04:12] Joel: Well, public speaking ability. Let's always understand that it is a skill and not a talent, so you're not born a great public speakers. Some of us have childhoods that support us being more or less fearless. But I take all comers. I coach people who are petrified of public speaking.

[00:04:30] And then I work with CEOs who experience. Public speakers. And here's something I want your audience to know. Veronica. I see very experienced public speakers, senior executives who give very poor presentations. And I see interns who will give very effective presentations. And what's the difference.

[00:04:47] It's if you know, you're. And if you understand your job is to convey that point. So I never attach ability to experience or hierarchy. I only attach it to, if you can explain to me what your point is, and it truly is a point then you're happy. Yeah. Cause our job, our job, you know, to your audience, your job is never to be a great public speaker.

[00:05:10] That shouldn't be your goal, unless you want more public speaking gigs, your job is merely to do one thing. And that is to effectively convey.

[00:05:19] Veronica: Yeah. And how does one get to that? I, you know, there's probably a lot of us participate in strategic plans and there's maybe vision, mission, and visions and values and goals in an organization.

[00:05:31] But how does one really peel back the onion to find the point to help them craft it the way, the way you're suggesting.

[00:05:39] Joel: Well, that's the question I wanted to answer with my book and my training, Veronica. I wanted an exercise, you know, it's one thing to understand that a point is not a theme or a topic.

[00:05:49] For example, podcasting is a topic, but using podcasting to reach a critical millennial audience. That's a point. So how do we get from one to the other? And I developed this thing, I just wrote for CNBC about this. It's called the, I believe that test. And it's very simple. And if you don't mind I'm going to share it.

[00:06:07] Now. It goes like this. You take what you think is your point. Usually one sentence or a fragment. You put the words. I believe that in. And now with only mild tweaking, if any, if you have a complete sentence not a fragment, not a run-on, if it would impress your fourth grade language arts teacher, it is a complete sentence, then you're on your way to making a point.

[00:06:31] Then we can sharpen it and learn how to champion it. But if it does not make a complete sentence, you need to reimagine it so that it is so let's apply leadership. I believe that. Not a complete sentence, not a point. I believe that the importance of. Not a complete sentence, not a point. I believe that the evolution of leadership, I believe that the tools of leadership none of these are points.

[00:06:54] Cause you're not making your argument to me. What am I supposed to take away from your communication, which we know when we speak in conferences, that's the one big idea of what you want your audience to take away. But you can say, I believe that a strong leadership requires active listening skills. Now that's a complete set.

[00:07:14] And thus, it is a point that makes you say, Hmm, go on. I want to hear more about how listening skills are applicable to successful leadership. So that's what the training is all about, but it starts with that element. And that's the big exercise and people take away anything from this conversation or from my work, please use that.

[00:07:32] I believe that test. Now you don't have to use the words. I believe that there's a benefit to using those words, but really it's just a tool to make sure. You're conveying your point and not doing something far less, which would leave you pointless.

[00:07:45] Veronica: Yeah, no, that's fantastic. I love that. And it seems like a lot of folks maybe get close to it, but I, I have to say I've actually heard presentations that were billed as, as the next best thing that I'm going to learn as a leader, as a professional.

[00:08:00] And then I get there and I feel like. Let down a little bit. So I feel like you're, you're onto that. And if more folks invest in just that exercise, they're probably going to be able to improve all aspects of the way they communicate. Maybe not just their right, their, their

[00:08:14] speaking.

[00:08:15] Joel: And I like to provide tools, you know, often we see speeches begin with, let's talk about, let's talk about entrepreneurs.

[00:08:22] Let's talk about leadership. Let's talk about podcasting. I don't know. Maybe you have ideas. Maybe I have ideas. We'll get those ideas together. Hey, we're just talking about it. You know, that is not point making. So I like to give what I call power words to make sure you're making a point. I suggest I propose.

[00:08:40] I recommend write these down. If you say those things, I suggest I propose, I recommend a, you are forcing yourself to put yourself and your reputation out there to make a point, and it will drive the kind of dialogue that you need. So ultimately have impact.

[00:08:57] Veronica: Yeah. And it also positions you as an expert.

[00:09:00] Right? And so I love that that those words are simple, but put together, they really can create a profound impression of who you are and your level of expertise.

[00:09:09] Joel: Right. They definitely support your authority. And they're also a professional development tool, by the way. I often say that if you're a leader of people and they bring you a status report, your job is to say to them, all right, thank you for the information.

[00:09:21] What do you want? And if you keep doing that, then sooner or later that a person who reports to you will come, they'll give you the status report and then they'll end it with, and here's what I recommend. That's a leadership skill, whether you're technically a leader or not, all of us in the professional world should be looking to convey leadership skills and utilize leadership skills.

[00:09:44] And using those power words are one way to do it regardless of your place in that.

[00:09:50] Veronica: Yeah, absolutely words have power. And, and so shifting gears just a little bit, how do you feel that the space changed if any, during COVID right. So many of the. We're participating in these global summits, big national meetings with folks all over the country.

[00:10:07] And then all of a sudden we created this digital space where we're engaging in trying to convey points and a flow of energy, but it was via a camera and a microphone. And how do you feel like that changed?

[00:10:20] Joel: Yeah. You know, when we moved from rooms to zooms many of us made assumptions that it would be the same you know, at the same points, the same people.

[00:10:28] I'm just seeing them as a Brady bunch instead of in person. Therefore I could do everything the same. And that turns out not to be true for one thing. There's this idea called zoom fatigue, which sounds like ism. But if you Google it, you could see that there has been some limited research about it, about this idea.

[00:10:43] How do I reconcile? My brain being at work, but my body and my advisement being at home, that can be very stressful. Also, you know, we're a lot closer. Nobody would have a meeting in an elevator. Why? Because we were too close together. Our faces are that close and that creates more of that zoom fatigue.

[00:11:02] So how do we deal with it and cope with it? One of the ways that I counsel my clients and my students is to make sure that. That you're head and shoulders dominate the screen. We don't want to be down here. We don't want to have our heads cut off. We don't want to be way over here cause we're comfortable.

[00:11:20] Like when we have a conversation with someone to have that conversation come from mostly the head and the face. The other big thing is about the. So a lot of people have these very creative environments and artificial environments. I'm at a baseball game and a mild space is my favorite cartoon character.

[00:11:38] SpongeBob is back there and they think that this makes them entertaining. Of course, entertainment is not the goal. So that's my rule on that. Anything in your environment, your virtual environment, that does not support your point steals from. So I always recommend neutral environments or some books in the background.

[00:11:58] Nice picture that either supports what you're saying, Hey, this person is smart. They read, or they're in a hospital setting, but not something that steals from that. Now I see a lot of people who understand that, but they blurred their background and to that, because that's so easy, but here's something I say that you won't see as often when we communicate even on zoom, it's alive in.

[00:12:19] There is authenticity where human beings were talking spontaneously. It's supposed to be real and truthful. So why would you insert something artificial into that dynamic? That's supposed to be authentic and real. So even the blurry background I don't recommend now, if you're just a participant at a meeting I'll give you some room to do that, but if you are.

[00:12:42] Make sure everything in your environment is supporting the point you're making through that presentation.

[00:12:47] Veronica: No, that those are really great tips. And I know a lot of us struggled. When we did go onto a virtual platform, we learned all the rules, you know, the unmuting, the hand gestures, you know, hands in front of the cameras, you know, all that kind

[00:13:00] Joel: of stuff, lighting in front and

[00:13:01] Veronica: up behind.

[00:13:02] Right. It took a little bit of adjustment. I'm wondering if you've noticed in your coaching business, if there's been any adjustments to the inverse, meaning now that many of us are coming back to the office, sometimes we're still wearing masks depending on where you are in the world. Have you have any of your clients struggled with how to get re-engaged physically being with people, especially when we're speeding.

[00:13:26] Joel: You know, I have not. And I have real world example of this just on Tuesday. I was in new Orleans speaking to clients who work in the banking industry. And I have to tell you, I haven't been in front of a live audience and about two years, and maybe it's been a while for them as well. It was like getting on a bicycle.

[00:13:43] It was so comfortable and not only did I appreciate it, but I think they appreciate. It's a little like gravity, we just fell into it. You know, they were there were rules about masking and things like that, but by and large, it was a more human environment. And the virtual environment, though, it has a lot of benefits, including chat polling.

[00:14:06] But there's nothing like a live environment. I always say, you know, we are human beings. What do we respond to as human beings, things happening live in front of us in real time, real emotions, authenticity human reactions, that artificial or press-release reactions. So the more we move toward a real conversation like you would have with your BFF, the more impactful that communication will be.

[00:14:29] Veronica: Yeah. Yeah. And just probably the physical energy, I think that's probably, and as a speaker, you know, we always talk about understanding your audience, read your audience. So when the jokes are falling flat and no one's smiling, you may want to change course. Right. But if you don't have that. Speaking in a webinar situation where they can see you, but you can't see them.

[00:14:52] I wonder how that shifts for people who are trying to do formal business presentations or really important content to deliver.

[00:15:00] Joel: And then you bring up a really important point, Veronica, even if you can see everybody else, we can't make assumptions about what they're doing. If someone looks away, that doesn't mean they're bored.

[00:15:10] It might be mean their spouse is bringing them a sandwich or a cat is throwing up, you know, really no. What I say, and it sounds controversial, but you can not, you don't have to pay attention to the people on the Brady bunch because you may be wrongly inferring or having inferences about what their visuals are conveying.

[00:15:32] The other important thing to recognize. And many of us know this. I'm looking at you now, Veronica, but I'm not really looking at you. Right? The rules of eye contact have totally changed. Here's me looking at you at my camera, small, cold, black.at the top of the screen. But if I really want to do eye contact, I'm going to be looking right there.

[00:15:51] That's hard for us human beings to look at a non-human being in pretend as a human being there, but. When you're making your point. If we do this right, we're going to have more revenue in the fourth quarter, we do this right. We're going to save more, lots that will have more impact with eye contact and on zoom or Microsoft teams or Skype, whatever you're using eye contact is here.

[00:16:11] Not here with me, looking at.

[00:16:14] Veronica: Right. No, that's a very great point. That's a very great point. When you're working with folks, what do you feel is the most common struggle you've talked about working with people who are petrified of speaking in front of a group and you've given us some examples, what do you think is the most common theme or the most common aspect that you've been able to coach them on?

[00:16:35] That any of us can probably make an improvement on right now.

[00:16:38] Joel: Right. I would say this came out of the book that I wrote the language of leadership for leaders in particular. I found a very common mistake right at the get-go when they put together a presentation. And I never say write a speech because by the way, I recommend nobody writes a word for word speech audiences don't want to be read to.

[00:16:56] You're creating tremendous peril for yourself. What you do want to do is create notes. So you can in real time and somewhat spontaneously convey an idea, but here's the wrong question that leaders often ask. What can I say, what do I want to say? What do I want to express? What do I want to tell my teams or tell the world?

[00:17:16] And that is the wrong question, because in presentation, it is not about what you say. It is about what is received. You can say a lot of things in a room with no people in it, but once you introduce people to the room, if they don't take away your key message, then it doesn't matter what. The end game is the impact you have on people.

[00:17:34] What they will take away, what they will think of new or do as a result of that communication. So if the wrong question is, what do I want to say? The right question is what does my audience want and need to know? Now I use both of those words because what an audience wants to know is usually things they already know.

[00:17:54] They want to hear. Appreciate it. They want to hear that good times our head. We want to hear that there's vision. These are things that they're expecting, but what an audience or a team needs to know. Maybe things they don't know, they don't realize here's new information. There's information coming from the executive team.

[00:18:12] Here's the result of a study. I'm going to share with you first. So let's put those in two different buckets, but if a leader or anyone understands what their audience, whoever they. Want and need to know if they can identify that and they don't have to do that by themselves. Use your executive team, use your HR team.

[00:18:29] Use people you trust, identify that work backwards. So you understand how your communication will match what people want and need.

[00:18:39] Veronica: Yeah, no, that's brilliant. And, and let me ask you specifically, when we are working on a speech, you mentioned a speech and I'm envisioning a CEO who has pulled the team together.

[00:18:50] Maybe the cabinet, all the chiefs are in a huddle. Yeah, you've got everybody giving you all this content. How does the person delivering the content. Get to that connected, authentic message when you've got so many people providing insight. Because I feel like oftentimes the CEO is guided by a very strong cabinet with facts and figures and data, but their leadership style may be one that is maybe funny.

[00:19:19] Maybe they use, you know, use a lot of humor. So how does all that come together when you're putting together a really important speech for a really important group of.

[00:19:28] Joel: Yeah, that's a huge challenge because you're right. We know authenticity is critical because you do not get to try. Which we know is important without authenticity.

[00:19:39] And if you come off as inauthentic, you were actually sabotaging that trust because audiences, especially the teams that are used to you, they can sniff out a, when you have a team of writers who, and you sound like a press release or like a tagline. So how do you get to authenticity? One is skipping the script.

[00:19:55] Usually those people are writing out like sound bites for you. They shouldn't be do that. A key message as we say in PR is not. It is an idea that you're being supported with. So do not bring a script to the table that will force you in fact, to use your own natural language. Never say anything that you don't believe or use any words that you would not ordinarily use.

[00:20:15] Leaders need to get their red flags ready to look at something and say, this is not me. One of my earliest experiences in speech writing was writing something for my CEO. That was so clever. I just patted myself on the back. I told my family and friends get this wouldn't this be awesome. And she wrote back, thank you for this, but I'm actually not that.

[00:20:38] And it doesn't sound like me. And I realized then, you know, you learn a lot of lessons throughout time. And I benefit from this being my job. You realize that, and it's not your voice, it's their voice. But often if you're supporting a senior leader, even if you're a speech writer, the big key is not writing what they might say.

[00:20:55] The big key is never writing what they would never say. Let's start there. So if you're going to do nothing else, remember that. So the leader's responsible for making sure it sounds like. The supportive team is responsible for understanding. This is not about me scripting you. This is about me supporting you.

[00:21:13] Veronica: No, that's brilliant. And how do you feel like that trans translates if it does to the online entrepreneurship space? You know, many of us are used to a corporate environment. We're used to boardrooms or used to stakeholders and, and all of that kind of stuff, but some of us have chosen since the pandemic.

[00:21:32] To leave the office, stay at home and design these online businesses. How does that translate into communicating with your audience?

[00:21:40] Joel: Right. To tell you the truth Veronica, some of the skills I talk about in a live meeting are the same in a real meeting. Like. Put off volume still speak with volume because volume conveys authenticity and competence and confidence still use pausing, not just because it slows you down because your audience needs twice as long to receive and digest what you say as you need to say it.

[00:22:04] These are things I spoke about before the pandemic, the things I talk about during the pandemic, but I will say this. Personal storytelling. We all know is a powerful tool for presenters and becomes even more powerful in an online environment. So we were talking a moment ago about authenticity. Nobody needs to be funny, even if you are funny, a joke comes and goes.

[00:22:25] Maybe somebody tweets it. It's a moment of entertainment, but if you tell a personal human story, And I'm not talking about something cinematic, I'm talking about what your six year old said to you that morning on NPR. The funny thing that happened over the weekend that makes you seem human. That makes you seem relatable.

[00:22:43] But the one thing I want your audience to leave with in terms of storytelling, is that the most important part of the story? Is not the story. It's the part where you attach relevance to it. And that happens with these words. This story shows why we must this case study is a great example of why we should this moment illustrates what happens when we apply this campaign to this challenge.

[00:23:09] Once you say those are, those are the magic words. Those are the words that elevate a story from just riveting.

[00:23:15] Veronica: Yeah, absolutely. No, those are fantastic tips and I think they apply across, across the board. So I I'm really glad you mentioned that. Describe to us how your trainings work. You mentioned working with clients and groups.

[00:23:28] Do you do one-on-one trainings? How can people work with you? Because you've got some fantastic strategies and clearly some great experience. How does.

[00:23:37] Joel: Yeah. So it's interesting. I sort of reinvented it based on my material and what I'm sharing, not based on a template that's out there. So I'm not the guy that's really going to work with you for a year, every other week or every week.

[00:23:48] That's not my style. What I do is first I teach you what a point. How to sharpen it and how to champion it. And with clients, I work with their points. Sometimes it's a team of 12 people. I'm about to do something in Pennsylvania for about 50 people. Sometimes it's one person and we talk about, and we make sure that my client understands what their point is, because usually they have a.

[00:24:12] But they're not articulating it as a point a. So we work on finding out what their point is, how to sharpen it, how to champion it. And the only other thing frankly, that I do is I come back later and I say, if you have a presentation to give or a sales call bring me in a couple of days before then.

[00:24:28] And that's when I can see you making your point in the context of this particular client you have, or this particular opportunity you have. And then we can go over a words structured. Your intro, your conclusion, your closing, your examples. That's when we can sort of fine tune and sharpen the edges of it.

[00:24:47] So first is about information having you understand your point second is about tightening the screws, making sure you're giving the most powerful presentation that you can and that's it. And then brought in if ever there are other opportunities or things like that, but that's how I approach. Yeah,

[00:25:04] Veronica: no, that's fantastic.

[00:25:05] And it probably gives your clients just a boost of confidence. Right? If they're struggling to just have someone give just a few little minor tweaks, like you said, I love the phrase you use tightening the screws because oftentimes that's all you need and it changes the entire dynamic. So right

[00:25:23] Joel: now, Yeah.

[00:25:23] And it's so fundamental, really. I would do the same or a similar presentation to a high school student that I went to a CEO of a major corporation. And those, you know, business people, sometimes their points, they don't realize it, but they stop short. They say, if we do this right, and this is often the way a point is if we do X, then Y will result.

[00:25:42] So if they say, if we do X, we'll get more traffic to our website, we'll be able to build more facilities. More people will write checks to us. And those aren't really the larger goals. If you work for Coca-Cola, your goal is not to have more Coca-Cola machines around your goal is to sell more. Coca-Cola right.

[00:25:59] If you're a teacher your goal is not to go through a curriculum. Your goal is to have your students leave better prepared for their future. And certainly if you're in a nonprofit, your goal isn't to bring more traffic to your website, your goal isn't even to have people write checks Is to save lives, save the world.

[00:26:18] And people want to hear that those again are magic words. What is the ultimate goal of your point? So that's what I train people to do. Whether you're saving lives or selling more Coca-Cola, you know, that's the work we do

[00:26:30] Veronica: together. Yeah. That's so exciting. I love that you shared that and your website is there on the screen for those of you listening on the podcast is Joel schwartzberg.net, and it's in the show notes.

[00:26:40] Joel, is there anything you want to leave us with before we sign off?

[00:26:43] Joel: Just know that without a true point, you are rendered pointless. So I wish everyone success in using the, I believe that test using the resources, resources@joelschwartzberg.net to help, you know, your point. I would also love that people, if they were on Twitter, they could follow me at the Joel truth.

[00:27:01] Cause I like to be, as they say an it open code, I like to share these ideas for free. And so following me at the Joel truth on Twitter is one way to get that. Awesome.

[00:27:11] Veronica: Well, I will definitely be sure to be following you because I did not check out your Twitter. That was the only social media handle I didn't get.

[00:27:17] So I will be adding that to my list for sure. Thank you. It was so great to have you on the show today.

[00:27:21] Joel: Thank you, Veronica. It was a pleasure.

[00:27:24] Veronica: Oh man, wasn't that fantastic. I took lots of notes and I will be adding to the show notes on the podcast so that everyone can also get some of the benefits that Joel had.

[00:27:35] We had some great guests checking in. It looks like ginger. There's going to be following Joel on Twitter as well. So thank you. And I will be bringing you another phenomenal guest next week. Cause here at Saturday soundbites. All things, visibility strategy that are going to help you improve the way you communicate.

[00:27:52] So if you're listening on the podcast, make sure you hit subscribe. We don't want you to miss any episodes. And if you're watching on Facebook and catch the replay, hashtag replay. So Joel and I can go back and say hello with that. I will wrap up this episode and I'm sending you lots of positive energy and light.